Posts by Sea Breeze

24

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

by Pallbearer in

howdy folks,.

i am interested in learning whether or not the watchtower society is the only religious entity that teaches the "from paradise lost to paradise regained" idea.. the "idea" is that god's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed.

god purposed for adam and eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed.

Sea Breeze

DJW, I think a literal reading is just what it says... NEW Heavens and a NEW Earth.

the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3: 10

Also, why does Revelation say that the God will literally dwell on Earth after the 1,000 years?

Because he is the King of it. Originally, Adam was King of the world. Then, a thief slipped in and stole it from him using deception. Later, God incarnated himself and bought the whole thing with his own blood.

I believe Jesus used to walk around the garden with Adam, just the two of them enjoying each others company. It will be like that. People just hanging out with God, enjoying him.

38

New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze in

5:27; 9:59; 18:22; jn.

9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; jn.

21:12, 17;] jn.

Sea Breeze

Ernest,

"feed the church of God which he purchased with his own blood" in Acts 20: 28 is EXACTLY the belief used by two prominent congregations leaders who were personally discipled by the apostle John. You cannot change that fact.

Would you at least concede that?

he makes no allusion to the book of Acts in any of his letters so there is no basis for suggesting he alludes to it here.

Of course they allude to it here. Acts was in circulation among Christians at the time. The belief statements are the same - God has blood. You would have us believe that these congregation leaders never read the book of Acts even though they were at the top of the orthodox Christian community and were personally taught by the apostle John and the book was in circulation?

John himself wrote that Jesus was God in John 1: 1. He obviously believed God bled too.

38

New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze in

5:27; 9:59; 18:22; jn.

9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; jn.

21:12, 17;] jn.

Sea Breeze

Sea Breeze, it should first be said that neither of the exerpts that you quote are referring to Acts 20:28.

Ernest:

That is hand-waving away inconvenient date to your argument. You have no way of proving this statement, as if you can crawl in their heads.

The fact is:

Acts 20: 28 speaks of the "blood of God" and two prominent congregations leaders who were personally discipled by the apostle John use this exact same expression.

38

New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze in

5:27; 9:59; 18:22; jn.

9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; jn.

21:12, 17;] jn.

Sea Breeze

GB,

Of course early Christians thought Jesus was God, as evidenced by the dozens of quotes on this thread.

Your own quote above from Polycarp is naming Jesus as "God" :

may He bestow on you a lot and portion among His saints, and on us with you, and on all that are under heaven, who shall believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ

Your post PROVES that the earliest congregation leaders viewed Jesus as both Almighty God and man .... at the same time, and not just one or the other.

And, as difficult as that may be to wrap your mind around, that is exactly what Christians believe today. I believe that your difficulty is rooted in materialism, which is the belief that there is no personhood attributed to anything other than the body of man - a leftover from Watchtower exposure.

Once you adopt a biblical definition of how man is constructed... with spirit, soul and body - a Tri-Partite being; then you will no longer need to ignore or explain away data that shows Jesus was viewed and accepted as God.

Read your last quote from Polycarp again, the whole thing. You'll see that Polycarp both acknowledged that Jesus had a God and was God. And, this is precisely the portrait that the scriptures present, regardless of how contradictory this may seem to someone with a partial materialist view.

It matters not if you agree, understand or accept this fact. This is the consistent portrait of Jesus of Nazareth, and is foundational to the Christian faith.

If you claim to be Christian, you have got to put faith in the right Jesus in order for the relationship to grow.

86

Is most of the promotion of creationism, not just that by the WT, charlatanism?

by Disillusioned JW in

is most of the promotion of creationism, not just that by the wt, charlatanism?.

https://www.fullmoon.nu/sources.bak/chapter%2010/part%202/gish%20exposed.html [which has an article called "creationism: bad science or immoral pseudoscience?

- (an expose of creationist dr. duane gish)"] says the following.. 'a look at the "scientific" creationist movement and a close examination of the tactics of a well-known and influential creationist will reveal that the creation "science" movement gains much of its strength through the use of distortion and scientifically unethical tactics.. .... with the facts explained and the lawsuits won, scientists declared victory and returned to their labs and offices.

Sea Breeze

Dinosaurs

Diamonds

DNA

Examination of the above fits with a Creation paradigm, not deep time. In addition to all this, the study of genetics utterly disproves evolution as Dr. Sanford ( world-famous geneticist and author of over 100 peer-reviewed science papers) explains at the National Institutes of Health .... starting at around the 17 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNOAoONRb60&t=1392s&ab_channel=BobEnyart

24

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

by Pallbearer in

howdy folks,.

i am interested in learning whether or not the watchtower society is the only religious entity that teaches the "from paradise lost to paradise regained" idea.. the "idea" is that god's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed.

god purposed for adam and eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed.

Sea Breeze

RR,

A literal bible reading states there will be a new heavens and a new earth. But, this is after the Thousand Year Reign of Christ, and after the Great White Throne Judgement.

The bible teaches both, not just one or the other. This chart explains:

Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth #2- The 7 Dispensations

This chart is basically the same thing but more xjw friendly.

24

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

by Pallbearer in

howdy folks,.

i am interested in learning whether or not the watchtower society is the only religious entity that teaches the "from paradise lost to paradise regained" idea.. the "idea" is that god's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed.

god purposed for adam and eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed.

Sea Breeze

Baptist Churches, Bible Churches, most Evangelical Churches and most Non-Denominational churches will believe in what the WT calls the "paradise earth" (premillennialism)

The reason that most folks took issue with us in our former door to door work wasn't because they held a different view of a paradise earth (amillennialists excepted). They took issue with us because we were preaching a different gospel than the one taught by the apostles in teaching that Jesus had already returned (in 1914) and the church age had ended in 1935 making the new covenant unavailable and unnecessary. This two-tier salvation (one with the new covenant and one without it) is where we lost most Christians we met. The apostles never preached this gospel.

though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. - Gal. 1: 8

Our rejection of the new covenant and expecting to avoid judgement is why we were all so shocking to premillinnialists and amillennialists alike.

And, they were right....like duh.

38

New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze in

5:27; 9:59; 18:22; jn.

9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; jn.

21:12, 17;] jn.

Sea Breeze

Thankfully, we have the writings of two of the Apostle John's disciples, Ignatius and Polycarp - both congregation leaders who refer to this verse in their writings.

Ignatius of Antioch (c. 50–117)

"I have become acquainted with your name, much-beloved in God, which you have acquired by the habit of righteousness, according to the faith and love in Jesus Christ our Saviour. Being the followers of God, and stirring up yourselves by THE BLOOD OF GOD, you have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you."

Polycarp of Smyrna (69–155)

"Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through THE BLOOD OF GOD you completed perfectly the task so natural to you."

38

New Approach to Discussing Deity of Christ with JW's

by Sea Breeze in

5:27; 9:59; 18:22; jn.

9:48; [21:8]; 24:47; jn.

21:12, 17;] jn.

Sea Breeze

The phrase, "thus saith the Lord" appears over 400 times in the Old Testament. It does not appear in the NT even once.

But in the NT Jesus said, "I say unto you" 135 times. Just let that sink in a moment.
Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of the apostle John, refers to "the blood of God"
"I have become acquainted with your name, much-beloved in God, which you have acquired by the habit of righteousness, according to the faith and love in Jesus Christ our Saviour. Being the followers of God, and stirring up yourselves by THE BLOOD OF GOD, you have perfectly accomplished the work which was beseeming to you."
The Christian God bleeds plain and simple.

24

From Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained: Is the WTS the sole promoter of this doctrine?

by Pallbearer in

howdy folks,.

i am interested in learning whether or not the watchtower society is the only religious entity that teaches the "from paradise lost to paradise regained" idea.. the "idea" is that god's original purpose for man and the earth has not changed.

god purposed for adam and eve and their offspring to reproduce and fill the earth and live forever upon it; but the problem of sin entered into the picture and temporarily interrupted that purpose from being completed.

Sea Breeze

Approximately 2/3 of all non-Catholic Christians believe in a literal paradise earth.... they just don't call it that. They call it the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Amillennialists deny a literal millennial reign:

Eastern Orthodox
Oriental Ortodox
Roman Catholic Church
Lutheran
Reformed
Anglican
Methodist

Episcopalian

Augustine started amillennialism in the late 300's. That view today, is generally a carry-over from roots in the Roman Catholic church.

The majority of everyone else believes in a literal thousand-year reign, as did the early church leaders.

The first premillennialists [belief in a literal millennial reign] were those who received God's revelation and wrote it down in the Bible. Eusebius tells us that one of the earliest church fathers that had heard the Apostle John and others who had known the Lord and His Apostles was Papias (AD 60-130), the bishop of Hierapolis in Phrygia, Asia Minor. Papias taught "that there will be a millennium after the resurrection of the dead, when the kingdom of Christ will beset up in material form on this earth."

(1) Irenaeus (AD 130-202) tells us that Papias "related that they had heard from him how the Lord used to teach in regard to these times" (the Millennium) in book 4 of Papias' writings, which are no longer extant, except a few fragments. Papias is recorded as saying: "there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth."

(2) Polycarp (A.D. 70-155), bishop of Smyrna, is also said to have been a premillennialist.

(3) The Epistle of Barnabas (written between AD 120-150) presents the common belief that "in six thousand years, all things will be finished ....then shall He truly rest on the seventh day." The writer speaks of the second coming of Christ with the clear implication that He will setup the thousand year kingdom on earth, followed by the eighth day or the eternal state.

(4) Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) in his Dialogue With Trypho c. AD 140, a Jewish man, made the following premillennial statement: "But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then he built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare."

(5) Justin Martyr considered premillennialism an aspect of orthodoxy in his day, "And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place."

I had a kind lady explain this to me one day in field service. I stopped going in field service when I understood that vast numbers of Christians already believed in a "paradise earth".